We’re excited to launch episode two of People Leading People, the new SoapBox podcast! For a little back story on the podcast, check out our intro post here. And be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts!
In episode two, we’re chatting with Paul Teshima, co-founder and CEO at Nudge, a relationship intelligence platform that helps you find and grow the right relationships that drive sales.
Before founding Nudge, Paul built the Customer Success team at Eloqua as the SVP of Product and Customer Success through to its acquisition by Oracle for $957 million US.
We talk to Paul about how he builds and coaches high performing teams at giant companies – and small startups.
The episode and full transcript are below, but here are a few of our favourite things Paul had to say:
On being a manager
“One of the things about management that always strikes me as interesting is people who say, ‘Wow, like, all this stuff comes up all the time, all of this stuff out of nowhere, and I can’t get my job done.’ I always used to take the approach that 40% of your day is to deal with stuff that comes up, as a manager. That’s your job; and so if you don’t like doing that, you shouldn’t be a manager.” (Skip to 4:00 to listen to this part!)
On giving feedback
“If you had to do one thing as a manager, it’s in-the-moment direct feedback while it’s happening – or just after it’s happening – positive or negative. Because if you wait, everything gets blurry, everything changes.” (Skip to 23:20 to listen to this part!)If you had to do one thing as a manager, it's in-the-moment direct feedback. If you wait, everything gets blurry. - @paulteshima of @nudgeai Click To Tweet
On employees burning out
“You do want to try and give those people time. Like, ‘Hey, take a day off. Do this, do that.’ I think the key is, through that burnout process, can you showcase to them, help them, support them, show that what they are doing is going to be better for them in their career? What they’re learning through that really tough process that is actually going to add value to them – maybe not even at this job, maybe the next job.” (Skip to 19:10 to listen to this part!)
Check out the episode below – and scroll down for a full transcript. Be sure to subscribe and review us in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen (and we’d love for you to give us a rating!).
People Leading People episode 2 | Paul Teshima of Nudge on coaching high-performing teams (transcript)
Jill and Brennan here from SoapBox, and today we are chatting with Paul Teshima, co-founder and CEO at Nudge.ai, a relationship intelligence platform that helps you find and grow the right relationships that drive sales. Before founding Nudge, Paul built the customer success team at Eloqua as the SVP of product and customer success through to its acquisition by Oracle for 957 million USD.
Thanks for joining us, Paul.
Paul Teshima: Thanks for having me.
Brennan McEachran: For those of you that don’t know, Paul and I have been friends. I mean we are coming up over two years now?
Paul: Yes, the first year I wasn’t really so much your friend, but yes.
Brennan: Yes, that’s true, I was stretching, but your story is really interesting so I think maybe just to fill people in, can you take us through the founding of Eloqua all the way to the founding of Nudge?
Paul: Sure, I was working at Rogers Communications back in 1999, and I got asked to meet with the founders of Eloqua and join as the second hire. I wanted to do something different and try it. I thought, “Not a better time to try something new in my career,” and so I joined in sales. As soon as we got enough customers, I started to run the back side of the customer experience side. Over the next 13 years, we built the company, took it public, survived a whole bunch of things including a patent lawsuit. They got bought by Oracle. After that was done, I thought I wanted to do it again and so I started Nudge.
Brennan: Crazy. How long between being acquired by Oracle, earning-out I guess, and then spawning Nudge?
Paul: There was no earn-out, which is lucky because otherwise I wouldn’t have earned-out that much after a year. It was about two months. I would say I would have taken longer but my co-founder, Steve Woods, started coding and making me feel really guilty about not working on the new company, and so it was about two months.
Brennan: Then back at it?
Paul: Back at it, yes.
Brennan: So life changed in-between. You had kids, you had a wife, you had all of that front. What’s different from like a mental state perspective between where you were and maybe founding Eloqua and where you are now? Do you approach the startup game differently?
Paul: You definitely approach it differently. I think the passion and wanting to help people and work with people and build something great is probably the same, it’s just you have a lot of different priorities in how you go about doing that. With Eloqua, I think I had just broken up with my girlfriend, I’d moved back home with my parents, I was making $18,000 a year. There is no tax on $18,000 a year, you get the full amount from the government.
You are doing different, you focus on the business, you are doing all sorts of crazy things. This time around, I have a family; but just this passion of building a great business, you just focus on different things to get it done.
Brennan: One of the things I wanted to dive in with you is – I’ve heard this countless times – I have no kids, but I’ve heard being a parent makes you a better manager. You’re on the other side of that, is that true? Is there honesty there or is that something people make up?
Paul: I think being a parent makes you patient in general, which could translate to becoming a better manager at the workplace. I don’t know if it directly translates though. I do think that one of the things about management that always strikes me as interesting is people who say, “Wow, like all this stuff comes up all the time, all of this stuff out of nowhere, and I can’t get my job done.” I always used to take the approach that 40% of your day is to deal with stuff that comes up, as a manager.
Brennan: Right, that’s your job.
Paul: That’s your job; and so if you don’t like doing that, you shouldn’t be a manager.
Brennan: You want to just work? That’s fine, you can take that job.
Brennan: That’s awesome, 40% of your time dealing with random stuff that pops up. Take me through what that 40%. Or does that 40% change when you are at Nudge right now versus Oracle? Was there less things popping up versus – then I guess, Eloqua, it’s kind of there’s a transition period between small company and big company.
Paul: Yes, it’s very different between Oracle to 120,000 people, to Eloqua to now, but there are some common principles I think that are similar. The hardest part about being a good manager is just figuring out, one, making it clear how you would like to work with someone as a manager. Like, “Here’s what I expect,” and being really clear about that. Then the second is understanding how those people that you’re working with, how they differ.
Sometimes someone who knows the solution still wants to come and complain about the problem and you need to let them do that because that’s how they think.
Brennan: That’s how they’ve been or something.
Paul: Yes, and then another person needs two days to think about something quietly before you bug them again. It’s the process of figuring out how your team works, and how that works in the way you want it to be done, is really about the part that you have to learn and figure it out.
Brennan: One of the things we talked about in our last meetup on the topic of managing up was who owns that process of the manager/employee relationship and figuring that out? It seems like, to me, it would be on the manager but there’s a big part of the employee also has to figure out how to work with you and how to manage up. Is that all on the manager? Is it different at a company of 100,000 people? Or are they more aware of how to manage up at a big company, or less aware a small company, or is it about the same?
Paul: There’s more structure in a big company. There’s more structure in the roles, more structure in the reporting. There’s more structure in what you are supposed to do every day, every week, and so there’s definitely some people who are really good at managing up the big company. Whereas at the small, it’s more fluid.
I do think it’s the job of the manager to set up the opportunity to allow your team to manage up. I do think it’s the responsibility of the team member to take that opportunity. I don’t always feel people understand that there’s a two way street on that.
Brennan: For the people listening who have the opportunity, but maybe don’t know if they are taking it, what does taking up that opportunity look like if you are an employee?
Paul: Let me give you a very tactical example. Every manager expects a certain set of standard metrics in the staff meeting for each of the different departments. These are the metrics I care about, right? Whatever, whatever, whatever. What you want to see is a transformation where the person who has to report their own metrics starts realizing, “These aren’t actually for you, Paul, these are for me to run my business.”
If I want to change the metrics, interpret them differently because they make more sense, if I want to use them as a way to drive the business and show you the results, that’s the transformation you want. It’s where it becomes less about not just managing up, but managing your own business.
Brennan: So take those metrics that I gave you, figure out are they even the right ones; and if they are not, help us figure out what they should be.
Paul: Yes, and then use them to manage the business when I’m not looking at the metrics.
Brennan: Right, and if something is wrong, fix it.
Jillian: I have a question. Hey, it’s Jill here.
Paul: Hey, Jill.
Jillian: Hi, so you talked about letting people know what their metrics are. What are other tactical things that, as a manager, you can do to set that expectation and be really clear about the environment you are creating and making people feel comfortable managing up?
Paul: I think that you need to – some people will actually write this down, but I think you need to be clear on the top things that bug or don’t bug you. I literally mean that. If you ask them something to do, and they don’t do it in a certain way. A great example: I asked my manager to send me an agenda a day ahead of our one-on-one so I can think about it, not be reactionary, and actually come back to them with a couple of things I want to talk about, and it bugs me if they don’t do that.
You should tell them, “It will bother me if you don’t do that,” because it’s such a simple thing for you to do. It also makes me realize that you’re thinking ahead and using the time wisely when we’re going to be there.
Brennan: Yes, you’re not just reacting.
Paul: You are not just half an hour before, “Oh, my God, I got to send him an agenda. Three bullets of whatever was on top of mind.” I think that point of telling things that bug you and don’t bug you and what your expectations are around those.
Brennan: It’s interesting. We were talking to a former team member of yours, Heather Foeh, and one of the interesting things we got from her was her sheet. She has this great sheet of like, “This is what irks me, this is what doesn’t irk me, this is how you should manage me or what you should expect of me.” I was like, “Wow, that’s great. Where did you get that?” She’s like, “Paul did this, so now I do it.”
Paul: I don’t even remember doing that.
Brennan: That’s why I was like, “We got to sit down with Paul and figure out what else is that guy doing.”
Paul: I learned something from Heather Foeh though and I’ll just mention that. This is where I think sometimes, as a manager, you got to be open to learning about how better to manage the people who are working with you. It’s that you have this one-on-one, whether it’s weekly or bi-weekly, whatever the structure is. Typically, I would say most managers I talk to, they move that if other things come up. Sales, calls, customers.
I think you just got to be careful how often you move that meeting because it implicitly starts showing that you, as a person who I’m working with, are going to be the last priority in the day. It’s really hard to do, don’t get me wrong. Like today, I have sales calls and I probably moved a one-on-one on Monday, but you got to try and figure out how to get that more consistent.
Brennan: Do you find that true at Oracle just as much as it’s true at Nudge?
Paul: It’s even more exasperated at a big company. At a big company, in my opinion, the seniority affects– It’s immediately implied everything is lower-priority if you are of lower seniority in the set up. There’s no question, it’s just how it is.
Brennan: Right, so then if you’re moving it, it’s just the person is further degraded or whatever and unimportant?
Paul: I know degrade is a strong word but over time it creates a sense of “You’re not a priority for me. The time we’ve allotted this week can be moved to any time. If you have something important, you may have to wait a day.” I think you got to be careful. It’s going to happen but get 50% of them on time, the same day, the same hour that you always think it’s going to be.
Brennan: I guess when you’re talking about managing up and having them show up prepared, if they’re sending you an agenda in advance and then you move it, that’s sending a signal of importance, how important was that agenda to you.
Paul: Agreed. Then maybe you can’t do weekly; if it’s moving so much, maybe you should do it bi-weekly and just make sure you do it every two weeks.
Brennan: That’s interesting. I talk to a lot of people about their one-on-ones and how they do them, and there’s a lot of differences between how often they run them and what they talk about. You do weekly, is that right?
Paul: I do half hour every week with all my – of course, it’s a small company right now and we’re moving pretty fast, so yes.
Brennan: How does that change? What are the breaking points there? Do you go to monthly? Do you go to bi-week? How many people until you change that up?
Paul: I don’t know if it’s a number of people thing. I think different managers need different cadences, and I think that you may get to the point where one manager or that weekly is becoming redundant. You may keep one manager at weekly. I think you got to look at that on a person-by-person scenario.
Brennan: See what they need?
Paul: Yes. Also, some of the department are at different stages of maturity, right? You have a group that may have grown a lot bigger and a group that’s just a new department just starting up, so it just depends on where you want to invest your time.
Brennan: You’re doing weekly for 30 minutes. You must be talking about work activities. Are you talking about personal stuff as well?
Paul: It’s primarily work activities, although I do always check in on that. Today, at Nudge, and I wouldn’t do this at larger scale, is that we have a weekly half-hour. Then we have a weekly hour slot that is not so much a manage up opportunity, it’s more a work together opportunity.
Brennan: That’s right. Yes, you were telling me about this. This is you sit down with them and you do work that helps them?
Paul: Yes. They come up with something they’re working on and they want to learn because I’ve been here longer, I’m the founder, and so we work together on something. More like I’m a team member than I’m their manager. They learn from that, I learn a bit from that, and then something gets done.
Brennan: And shipped or whatever, put out, something like that?
Paul: Yes, something gets completed that, “Hey, it’s good.”
Brennan: All direct reports?
Paul: All direct reports with that hour.
Brennan: How many direct reports are you doing?
Paul: I only get like four direct reports, that’s not crazy.
Brennan: Right, but you’re still talking about almost over a day, or close to a day a week, is basically doing those two things if you add that up? I don’t know if that’s true.
Paul: A regular workday a week, yes.
Brennan: Okay, that’s correct, yes.
Paul: It’s correct.
Brennan: Maybe that’s also interesting. I think one of the things we’ve talked about in the past is what is a regular workweek for you?
Paul: Like you want me to go through the day?
Brennan: I mean you can go through the history, like what was regular at Eloqua, what’s regular at Oracle?
Paul: Regular at Eloqua was, when I started, I worked 65 days straight including Sundays. I did probably three 120 hour weeks, which is 15 hours a day, seven days in a row. Which is insane. I don’t think that makes any sense.
Brennan: Okay, you learned from that?
Paul: Yes, I just don’t think it does. The thing that’s different between then and now and how you work is I think, for me, when I know I don’t know something, rather than be bullheaded and just trying to figure it out, I just ask somebody for help.
Brennan: Right, that’s the big difference.
Paul: And I know who to ask.
Brennan: You have the network?
Paul: That’s right.
Jillian: What kind of an effect does it have on your team when they see you working that hard? Presumably, you are working that hard because there was just work that had to get done. I’m imagining, as a manager, you’re trying to do the manage stuff and also your own work. Did you notice anything in terms of the kind of message that was sending to your team, and did it motivate people to see working that hard, or was it something that maybe stress them out?
Paul: You’re talking about back at Eloqua?
Paul: Because I don’t do 120 hour weeks today. It certainly set a culture of working hard and hours matter. I understand that and it burned some people out and it burned me out. I certainly would do it slightly different, but I will say that the caveat to that is we were a SaaS startup in a world where people didn’t buy SaaS and people did look at Canada for startups, and we were not funded so we had no option.
If I’m being asked to lead a digital marketing session with the heads of Intrawest Properties and I don’t know what digital marketing is, I probably have to stay up overnight to learn that so I don’t look like an idiot the next day. It’s stuff like that. Hopefully, no one from Intrawest is listening to this.
Brennan: Now, you’re much more purposeful about managing your time versus staying up all night?
Paul: Yes, I am. Maybe it’s not as fun at the office because of that because we all just get focused on getting stuff done and not as much casual time, but I think that it ends up being more effective time.
Brennan: I think when people think of startup environments, they think it’s going to be ping-pong tables, and pinball machines, and scooters, a bunch of beer, and young people screaming and yelling and having fun. I don’t know, I’m curious for Jillian’s opinion here. I don’t think that’s true at SoapBox. Although I think we do try to have fun, but it’s definitely about show up, work really hard, and get yourself out the door. Do you find you’re consciously making different cultural decisions with Nudge the second time around?
Paul: I think it is. For me, it’s just the only way I can do a startup now. With family, it’s that we need to focus in the time we’re working and then have time off for personal life. That’s my priority. I think Steve and I, when we look to hire, we made it clear that we have a different type of work environment. We want you to go dinner with your families or your friends or your boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever; but yes, we do work late at night and do work early in the morning. We just try to fit it all in.
Brennan: Awesome. I want to go to some of the more painful things that maybe new managers have a hard time jumping in. You mentioned burnout, how do you know if someone’s burning out? What do you do to maybe pump the brakes on that person? If they’re burnt out, what do you do? Do you get rid of them? Do you give them a vacay? How do you deal with burnout?
Paul: There’s two things, parts to that. One is how do if someone is burning out? I think most managers get a sense of that. The harder question is, how long do you let it go for knowing that it still helps the company?
Brennan: Do you kill this person?
Paul: Yes, do you just keep killing them because they’re doing a great job and you need them to kill themselves for the next year, right? When I ran customer success at Eloqua, we had a pretty big team, I think it got to almost 100 people towards the end. We were, in my humble opinion, one of the best customer success organizations in the world. We were delivering value, creating a new market with marketing automation.
There were some challenges at one point with the product and I said to the team, “It’s not going to be fun but we got to prop this thing up for the next little while,” and I said, “Your people may burn out and not be able to stick around just because we pushed too hard, but this is our strategic advantage. We are good at this so we have to take advantage of it as a business.”
That’s the harder question. It’s like, “How much do you burn them out for knowing even that some will leave, and is that a good or bad call?” When do you say, “Okay, enough is enough, we’ve lost enough people, or it’s a problem.”
Brennan: Going into that, did you have people burnout?
Paul: Yes, we did definitely.
Brennan: What did you do? Was it let them burnout and replace them with fresh blood?
Paul: Some of them burnt out enough to just leave. Some of them we started to say, “Okay. Could we get them into a new role in the company that’s different, that still add lots of value?” Some of them we pulled back on, it just depended on the area. But there were some definitely I knew – again, extremely hard decisions, but that they were the right people for that job. That job was long and hard and was going to burn them out but I needed them to do that job.
Brennan: What’s the one thing maybe – I guess it’s going to be different per person. If you have a couple tips for people out there who are like, “I’m dealing with someone who’s burning out, how do you motivate them to put in the extra five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, an hour when they’re dying?”
Paul: I want to be clear for those out there listening. You do want to try and give some of those people time like, “Hey, take a day off. Do this, do that.” I think the key is through that burn out process, can you showcase to them, help them, support them, that what they are doing is going to be better for them in their career? What they’re learning through that really tough process is actually going to add value to them over – maybe not even at this job, maybe the next job.
Or are they doing something that’s so terrible that it’s never going to even help them? That’s a much easier decision like, “Let’s figure out how to stop that. Let’s figure out how to give you a break.” What I try to do is say, “What can we find that’s the diamond in the rough here? What you’re learning that is so great that, yes, you may burnout a little in doing it for next little while, but it’s going to make your career that much better.
Jillian: Yes, from my perspective as a non-founder and sometimes having to work really hard and teetering on the edge of the burnout zone, it is helpful to just understand the why. Like, why we are we doing this? When the managers are really upfront with like, “You might burnout, I’m aware of that, and this is why you just need to keep pushing forward.” It doesn’t have to be some grand, “Let’s all align on the big vision of this company and how we’re changing the world.”
It can be as simple as what you said in terms of, “We need to prop this up until it’s fixed in the product, so we just need to band together.” Then, for me, if a manager were to just say, “I need you because you are the best at this and I know it’s going to burn you out, so let’s just talk about like – let’s just be open and honest and I can always tell you how the things you are doing are propelling your career and all of that.”
Paul: Yes, I agree. You admit that, “Yes, we are burning you out.” You don’t pretend. “What are you talking about? Everyone is like this.” You say, “This is hard work. We know this is really tough. It’s going to be a slag. Here’s is the valuables to the business and to yourself and let’s just stay on top of it and let’s go as long as we can.”
Brennan: Okay, so I think that’s the happy scenario, right? Where you get someone who you sense is burning out, but they are still showing up every day and trying. There’s got to be a whole bunch of examples you have where people start showing up and not trying. How do you bring that up? If you do have to part ways with them, what do you do, what do you say?
Paul: I think that the best philosophy in trying to understand performance if someone is not doing a good job is this idea. Like if you actually think of it, nobody wants to do a bad job, they just don’t. People don’t like being told they’re doing a bad job. They don’t like doing a bad job. So what you have to go in the assumptions is that something else is stopping them from doing a good job, and you need to find out what that is.
Sometimes it’s something very straightforward like they just don’t like the job anymore. Sometimes it’s something personal. Sometimes it’s something that’s someone else is affecting them. Once you figure that out, you’ve got options.
One of the biggest mistakes I ever made as an early manager was just assuming people just didn’t want to get fired ever, and it’s actually not true. Sometimes people themselves come to the conclusion, “This is no longer the right place for me, but I’ve invested so much time and I don’t know what to do.”
Brennan: “I can’t quit.”
Paul: Yes, “I certainly can’t quit.” If you handle it in a way that gives them respect, understand it, and have discussions and say, “It’s not working out. What are your thoughts around the situation?” You’ll be surprised when they say, “Yes, I know.”
Brennan: “I can’t do it anymore, but you’ll have to free me.”
Paul: There are times where it comes as a shock, and then you’ve done a bad job as a manager understanding that process earlier on, and I’ve had some of those too for sure.
Brennan: I definitely remember my first shock and, for me, it was, “Oh, my God. I’ve got to change how I manage so that I never my – it’s a very selfish thing, right? “I’ve got to manage better so that I’m never in this awkward situation where I’m just shocked that they’re going to be leaving.” What do you do to prevent that shock with the employees? Is that all happening in those weekly sessions or are you doing other things?
Paul: I think it happens a bit with the direct feedback in the moment. If you had to do one thing as a manager, it’s in-moment direct feedback while it’s happening or just after it’s happening, positive or negative. Because if you wait, everything gets blurry, everything changes. I think that’s one thing. The second is you should have a performance management process that forces you to explicitly explain why something is not where they think it is.
A lot of performance management processes leave a lot of for interpretation of why you didn’t get there, why you didn’t get this score or that score. Come up with a process that’s explicit. “To get to this level, here’s the three things that you need and you didn’t do this one thing, the third thing,” and force managers to explain that.
Brennan: I’m assuming with Eloqua as you were hiring managers, how did you coach them to ensure they were doing a good a job of that? How did you get visibility into it? How did you ensure they were leading their team in that way? You had a process, I’m assuming?
Paul: I think just being really engaged with – I think there’s two aspects to it. One is being really engaged with all the activities and once a while dipping deep into say a customer visit or something. Seeing stuff from the frontlines at different points in time, I think that’s one, and so you are never losing touch with what’s happening with the people below, the people you are managing.
I think the second is I used to often ask them this question as a real tactical way to explain what I’m expecting of them, they should expect of their team. If you really want to try and figure out how to level up the entire organization, the questions you ask me every week, you need to get your team to ask you. And so this idea of passing down levels of questions. To them, it’s like, “Wait a second, there’s no way my direct cohorts could ask me the questions I ask you because I know all these things.”
So they start thinking, “Then how I get my team to know all those things? Oh, maybe I need to empower them to do more stuff so they ask me the questions that I’m asking you.” That frees up them to then think about the next level things they’ve got to focus on. This idea of passing down questions as a way to tactically explain what you are expecting, I thought it was very effective.
Brennan: That’s a good tip.
Jillian: That’s a great tip. Okay, so we’ve got five minutes left and it’s the super fun part of our podcast called the secret question. Paul, you’ve got three cards turned over upside down in front of you with a number one, two, and three. I’d like you to pick one at random and that’s the question you have to answer.
Paul: It’s number one.
Jillian: All right.
Paul: It’s about Brennan’s worst secret.
Jillian: How did that one get slipped in there?
Brennan: I wonder what it will be too.
Paul: No, it’s not. What’s the best piece of advice you’ve received or heard about leading people? I think the best is more an experience. Can I give you an experience that taught me something?
Paul: When I was running CS in Eloqua, I had a director who was really strong in one aspect of the job and not so strong in another aspect of the job. So under a lot of pressure from that director, and just my own thoughts and moving very fast, I over on a six-month period promoted them to vice president thinking that maybe the part that wasn’t so great would be diminished and the part that was great would be amplified. Of course, the exact opposite happened. The part that was great, reduced; and the part that was bad, grew.
I went back to my CEO and said, “I think I made a mistake, I need to let this person go,” because there’s no way to backpedal from promoting someone. He said to me, “Paul, obviously it’s a stupid mistake promoting someone to vice president and then three days later saying you made a mistake, but I’m happy you came to me. You’ll never hear about it from me again. I won’t hold it over your head. I won’t come back to it. I won’t make jokes about it because I’d never want you to think that you can’t do that again.”
It was a great piece of advice for me because he could have publicly torn me to shreds in front of everyone but he never did this. For the last seven years I worked with him, he never mentioned it ever again, and it gave me the strength to be completely honest with him about everyone that I was working with; knowing that he would never ultimately hold me responsible for making mistakes as long as I knew how to correct them and get better.
Brennan: And fix them quickly.
Paul: It was a great learning lesson for me and something that, hopefully, I’ve also done when I worked with the people within my company.
Jillian: Cool. That’s it for today. Thanks for joining us, Paul, we really appreciate it. Is there any last word you’d like to leave us with, maybe a pitch about your company or anything you are working on right now?
Paul: I would say this because a lot of people are in software and tech companies and why I love this podcast and why I’m happy to be on it is that I think that customers may come for your service or product, but they are going to stay for people. I think if everyone focused a little more on the people side of the business, I think you’d be incredibly surprised with the great success you’ll have as a business.